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Problems with artificial score pumping
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kilik8880
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Joined: 21 Oct 2009
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I say..
Yes for reseting leader board

no on only one id
yes on no rank being recieved for playing against clan teammates
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scottlu
WI Founder


Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Posts: 1773

PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you everyone for posting your thoughts and ideas. This thread is *still in progress*, so let's continue the discussion. A few thoughts on ideas brought up in this thread:

- Someone mentioned players will be angry if scores reset, and resetting scores punishes the innocent. Here's my thought on that: if players at the top are cheating, and you play fairly, how does that make you feel about your score? Wouldn't you rather there were no cheating so you could compete fairly? Second, and maybe I'm alone on this, reseting the scores is fun because everyone is competing again. The players that were good are still good and will raise to the top.

- About any solution that requires policing. Policing won't work because it is impossible to police all instances where it is going on. And the amount of effort and coordination to try and police it is impossible to coordinate. Then finally there is the judgement of the cheating, which requires someone. It's all too much to work. The solution has to be one that addresses the problem without policing, like the 1 ID solution.

- For people who want 2 IDs. That doesn't solve the problem because with 2 IDs you can cheat (read my first post on this thread).

- Clan players playing one another. Whatever solution we come up with must allow any player to play anyone else whether they are in a clan or not. Putting restrictions on which players can play each other doesn't make sense IMO.

- Someone suggested making games not count when one clan member plays another of the same clan. That is an interesting idea, but the problem is that this isn't limited to clans. Any two people can do it whether they are in a clan or not.

- The ganging up problem. This is where you play a 4v4 map with 3 clan members, the 4th not a clan member, and the 4th gets ganged up on. It can happen on 3v3 maps too. I don't have a good solution to this problem, unfortunately. My feeling is that this happens now and will become more common if we move to 1 ID, because 1 ID doesn't solve this problem (but it does solve the multi-ID cheat problem).

Here is another idea. Part of me believes that if we go with the 1 ID change, other ways of cheating will still be used like the ganging up problem, and probably still other ways not being listed. A never ending battle. What if we keep multiple accounts as we have now (and the cheating behavior that results), and address the problem by resetting the leaderboard every month or two? Here's the thinking: with cheating going on, over time the players at the top have to all cheat just to keep their score high, by definition (eventually this would be the case). This opens up a gulf between those players and the players who aren't cheating, and players who are new to the game. Resetting the leaderboard every month or two means there is an exciting event every month or two. It gives more of a chance to new players and players who aren't cheating. The best players raise to the top anyway. To recap, this idea is to keep things as they are, and reset the leaderboard every month or two.

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wonderer
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Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 2221
Location: birth place of, TEXAS

PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rest the leaders board every one or two months the cheaters well get tired of boosting points it well solve all problem (trust me I'm a Boss)

Let us have one or two accounts (can we pick which account we can keep?)

well when I gang up on one player it's because they cleary have more $ then me and my partner does.
If we do go to 1 ID I will see that me and my clan members win all of the FFA maps we play to gether. Right now some have other ID's I don't even now or forgot. So when I see them I would team up with them for sure With out telling them. (But I don't set up traps)

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johnjones
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Joined: 14 Nov 2009
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the idea of resetting frequently. It keeps the leaderboard current rather than people building up a score then playing once every two weeks. Although I'm sure the guys currently up there won't like it, I bet once it happens they'll start enjoying the game more without the stress of keeping a score going.
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WarKilla93
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Joined: 11 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bad idea, because you'll just ruin the game. Leaderboard is there to make the game more exciting and give players goal and challenges. If you just reset it every 2 months then all the hard work that other players did wouldnt be up there for long and it the game would turn like other games. It would be a simple game online game, no competition and boring. I like this game because theres a leaderboard in the game. It gives me challenge and a excitement that keeps telling me to keep playing this game and try to be number 1. Thats what makes this game so addicting, seeing your name on the leaderboard by all the people that plays this game.
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Jack17
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Joined: 16 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WarKilla93 wrote:
bad idea, because you'll just ruin the game. .


warkilla are ruining now this game with ur cheater clan. U and ur clan r the only reason y scott think about it.

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valicious
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Joined: 03 Nov 2009
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Location: Pacland

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scottlu wrote:
Thank you everyone for posting your thoughts and ideas. This thread is *still in progress*, so let's continue the discussion. A few thoughts on ideas brought up in this thread:

- Someone mentioned players will be angry if scores reset, and resetting scores punishes the innocent. Here's my thought on that: if players at the top are cheating, and you play fairly, how does that make you feel about your score? Wouldn't you rather there were no cheating so you could compete fairly? Second, and maybe I'm alone on this, reseting the scores is fun because everyone is competing again. The players that were good are still good and will raise to the top.



Personally, I would rather see the obvious cheaters get reprimanded than punish the innocent ones. I don't really like mentioning names because I know for a fact that most of the players know who those individuals or clans are. I really hate pointing fingers but I wouldn't hesitate giving an answer if I needed to. Not a lot of players or a group of players cheat so why punish all of us? Scott, you yourself mentioned here that you sent pm's to those players who were, and still are, obviously unfairly boosting their ratings and we've also seen the posts by some of the individuals who admitted to doing this unfair boosting of ratings so why hesitate to do something to those individuals? Why let them ruin the game? Why not show the whole Warfare Incorporated community that you are willing to reprimand "ONLY THOSE WHO OBVIOUSLY CHEATED" and do it swiftly? Why not make an example out of them? Why make the innocent suffer?

I am not trying to make such a big deal out of all of these but every successful gaming community does NOT reset rankings every couple months. I have pretty much all the mainstream consoles, pc and handheld devices and I play online games frequently and I have never seen any successful online games with ratings reset their rankings. What I do know is that if you're caught cheating, most of the time they ban/delete/cancel your id without warning. Why can't we do that here? I say just limit the ids to one per device and reprimand those that need to be reprimanded just to end this chaos. I mean you've already given them warnings and I hear from players that they are still doing it every single day. You can reset the ratings as often as you want but I don't see it as something exciting at all.

Once again, to make this game a total success, just punish those players that obviously need to be punished. The game has already improved by adding clan pages with moderators and making anons neutral (my idea btw hehehe) and I think these small tweaks made most if not all players happy. I don't claim to be a genius or a very intelligent person whatsoever, but I do know for a fact that my ideas have been put into motion by "bossmen" (not the boss clan) a lot of times before and then some. And no, I am not bragging at all. I am just genuinely concerned about this community's well-being. I think we have a lot of great characters here, contrasting or not. There's such a huge potential for this game to be very successful but THE justified decisions have to be made. Not because some people want it done, but because it's the very right thing to do.

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galm
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Joined: 18 Oct 2009
Posts: 2382
Location: New York

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok here's an alternatiive solution which I actually really like. Y don't u add an observe button from the lobby? Then don't tell the people playing that there r observers, so they don't know if someones watching. This would allow new players to get a better strategy and make sure the players don't cheat. If caught cheating they WILL get there account reset. This should definetely stop people from cheating because not only the player but winesses can report them, but if they r caught lying maybe they Will get banned for a little while or long while and get there account reset.
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scottlu
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Joined: 15 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good post Val, thanks. Yes I can reset obvious cheaters.

The problem with it is:

- it is more widespread than the obvious one you refer to
- It is impossible to observe and police all cases.
- it would work much better to have a system that prevents cheating, that does not require other people to make judgements.

However, all systems have tradeoffs, that is why we're discussing them in this thread. Manual policing is an option, although not one I like.

Galm, making games viewable by others is another form of manual policing.

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wonderer
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Joined: 16 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only if your a mod or fiveO maybe a new person should be able to look at the games. I just learned a new move and I would hate if people would see what I'm doing.(nothing special I just never cought it) Anyways just join and quit if you want to watch. That's what players some times do. Or use a hidder ID's

lollol I thought Val was talking about Bosses lollol i was so happy for a milisecond.

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Things I'm proud of...
Making clans a cool idea
Creating outlanders and boss clan
being leader of viet pride.
Being the second highest poster on this forum.
Write many strategy.
Helping people and making people laugh.
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BrianBSHS
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Joined: 23 Jan 2009
Posts: 488
Location: Zimbabwe

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If a player is good, then they can ge back up on the leaderboard in no time. It's not a big deal if we reset the leaderboard because players will be able to get back easier. It'll also make the game more fun because everyone is fighting to be ahead not getting ahead by 100 points then leaving.
I do think, though, that making only one account is a bad idea for the reason I brought up before.... Clan tags, many players are in a clan and their main accounts are different than their clan accounts. It's punishing us for no reason.

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kilik8880
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Joined: 21 Oct 2009
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am for te leaderboard reset it just sounds like fun!!

And if you have a problem with this their is a good chance that you are one of the cheaters

if your skills are true and as good as the leaderboard shows than it shouldn't be a problem to go right back up to the top
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valicious
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Joined: 03 Nov 2009
Posts: 521
Location: Pacland

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kilik8880 wrote:
I am for te leaderboard reset it just sounds like fun!!

And if you have a problem with this their is a good chance that you are one of the cheaters

if your skills are true and as good as the leaderboard shows than it shouldn't be a problem to go right back up to the top


That's not necessarily true. I myself don't really mind resetting, although I would be mildy upset to say the least because I worked so hard to acbieve those points. Anyone who says I am cheating are free to ask those top players that I beat one on one and also those players that I teamed with.Some of them were former number 1. Those players know who they are and some of them actually made some posts here. So just because I am not totally for it, I'm not totally against it either. All I'm saying is why not do it the way those successful online games do it? I just don't see this as the ultimate solution. Of course those who arent top 25 would say reset it, but have the opinions of the top 25 players been asked with the exception of those that are proven guilty of cheating? If the majority of the top 25 says yeah, then I will never no longer post my humble and UNBIASED opinion here because there will no longer be a point since a top 25 majority's decision. Just like Warkilla said, though I'm not defending him or anything, hard work is needed to get up there (and that's with him getting some help) now imagine getting up the ranks without or with very little help.

Find the real solutions because resetting is not the real solution. Reset it and the more advantage it will be for those pumping their scores since they can always log in as anon to help their clan members in ffa games or 2vs2, right? I'm pretty sure most of you guys, based on your posts, didn't realize this one major flaw!

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BrianBSHS
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Joined: 23 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

valicious wrote:
kilik8880 wrote:
I am for te leaderboard reset it just sounds like fun!!

And if you have a problem with this their is a good chance that you are one of the cheaters

if your skills are true and as good as the leaderboard shows than it shouldn't be a problem to go right back up to the top


That's not necessarily true. I myself don't really mind resetting, although I would be mildy upset to say the least because I worked so hard to acbieve those points. Anyone who says I am cheating are free to ask those top players that I beat one on one and also those players that I teamed with.Some of them were former number 1. Those players know who they are and some of them actually made some posts here. So just because I am not totally for it, I'm not totally against it either. All I'm saying is why not do it the way those successful online games do it? I just don't see this as the ultimate solution. Of course those who arent top 25 would say reset it, but have the opinions of the top 25 players been asked with the exception of those that are proven guilty of cheating? If the majority of the top 25 says yeah, then I will never no longer post my humble and UNBIASED opinion here because there will no longer be a point since a top 25 majority's decision. Just like Warkilla said, though I'm not defending him or anything, hard work is needed to get up there (and that's with him getting some help) now imagine getting up the ranks without or with very little help.

Find the real solutions because resetting is not the real solution. Reset it and the more advantage it will be for those pumping their scores since they can always log in as anon to help their clan members in ffa games or 2vs2, right? I'm pretty sure most of you guys, based on your posts, didn't realize this one major flaw!




"Those successful games" like Diablo II have a ladder and a non-ladder leaderboard. So why don't we add a copy of the leaderboard that resets. The first leaderboard would gain points just like it normally would while the second one would be reset every so often.

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galm
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Brian and Scott I would love that anyway, the competition would get more fierce because beginners could watch more expierenced players. It's not really manual policing there wouldn't be mods of it people would just think twice plus new players would learn faster.
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